Header art by obfuscobble
Knockout: the Fabulous One (AKA one of Those Two Bad Guys)
OK so this was great until:
“Unfortunately girls of my age are prone to bouts of squee over such stereotypes so… *squee* Now I know I know, stereotyping is bad and…
So that was a new perspective on stereotypes for… [snipped for space. And no, I don’t believe you can do a ‘read more’ cut, alas.]
OK, I don’t really have the energy to respond to this point by point rn (sorry!), so I’m gonna cover some general topics [also snipped for space, and lacking the energy to do a more thurough response, especially after losing my first answer to this DX]:
I thought ‘stereotypes… [snip snip!]
Man, that is a point I hadn’t considered, and I… do know what you mean! Because yeah, in US media, it is impossible (I believe it’s actually against some code or other, so literally) to get it across explicitly. (I come from the perspective of it happening, albeit very rarely, in the UK. We can have queer characters on kids’ shows, it just almost never happens.)
I think the best way I can put it is: ‘coding’ versus ‘stereotypes’. Some things are recognised as queer coding. And to a certain extent, they align with stereotypes, because in order to recognise them you have to generalise. But I think the major difference for me tends to be that coding isn’t about who the character fundamentally is.
Like, take your example, Adventure Time. How is Bubblegum/Marceline coded as queer? Basically, how they act towards each other- and only really to each other. There’s a whole ream of jokes to be had about Marceline feeling jilted, and Bubblegum wearing her shirt, and so on. It’s about a relationship, and it’s about that relationship stepping outside ‘acceptable’ boundaries of being platonic, and that being obvious!
Likewise, coding can be about common experiences that are recognisable. Like, this is where it gets tricky. A lot of lesbians may have the common, recognisable experience of not being conventionally feminine, for example, so having a girl who reflects that may code as queer. But is that also a stereotype? Honestly, it can be good and bad. Even both at once. Execution can be important, but how do you execute that when you can’t even say what you’re doing? I guess this is where writing gets backed into a corner by limitations.
It’s funny, ‘cause- a lot of the examples I’m coming up with are f/f? Like, I’m coming up with Sailor Moon stuff (not the canon examples), I’m coming up with Poision Ivy/Harley from the Batman cartoon. I guess because that kind of ‘oh, they’re just friends!’ way to hide is so much harder when we don’t expect male characters to be all that emotive about friendship? And possibly because it’s seen as funny, for the adults fanservice when it’s f/f, since: lesbians = sexy to a lot of people.
So I guess… I don’t know! Damn, the media is so screwed up WRT these things. The most effective route I can see is, make any queer coding about an individual relationship, because that’s less likely to fall into stereotype, which tend to be about identity. But identity is still important, so, it’s far from perfect.
DAMN I AM VERY BAD AT GIVING STRAIGHT ANSWERS.
It was a point I only realized through all the Knock Out discussion before, and what like thegamingmuse and nellasaur brought up, and just made me reconsider stereotypes and the (in)visibility of queer/gay people in fic media. It was honestly something that had never occurred to me, and it was kinda electrifying to notice that.
Thanks for pinpointing what I was thinking about Marceline and Princess Bubblegum as a possibly idea example of an implicit rep of queer characters and their relationship.
That is true—I still feel like we see more f/f than m/m in the media (though I think there’s Glee, but I still haven’t really watched that show). Which is, y’know, another shame, I think. And that f/f can be done more under the guise of close friendship, something guys are not socially expected to do, to be that close as friends, which is just—damn, unfair. And then it seems like if guys are close friends, they’re more automatically seen as gay, and that seems unfair too. Besides queer characters being respected, can’t two truly straight guys be close friends without be considered gay? And I think it’s that perception of gay, the fear of being seen as that, does keep guys from being closer to each other or seen as close, and it’s just…ugh. Guys seem to be forced into striving to be emotionally closed off (a TFP meta on Optimus Prime touches upon this.) I don’t know, gender inequalities sucks both ways, and sometimes I feel it even more than guys, if only because it seems less addressed. Like…girls can wear pants and it’s acceptable now. Is there possibly a guy who wants to wear a dress, and not be transgender, gay, etc.? What about guys who could possibly really like pink? Or even boys who really wanted an EasyBake oven? Or any other guys who would like traditionally “female” things and not be considered gay as an insult, or ostracized for that? And again, gay men (who may like traditionally “female” things or not) to not be ostracized at all.
Oh, that’s new to me, coding v. stereotypes, not as synonyms, though apparently they do work together. I’ll have to look up the terms in a dictionary online. Thanks for clearing up that term difference.
That’s really interesting about the UK, I had no idea! And yeah, I’m like going from the US perspective, so…yeah, that UK thing was total news to me. They have that freedom, though it’s rare? Still rather cool.
I’m also having trouble giving straight opinions/questions/answers. I think it’s because the whole issue and its history (and the effects of that history) doesn’t really provide straight answers, it’s even more complicated than first thought, and it does go a little beyond black-and-white POVs.
AGAIN, SUPER INTERESTING DISCUSSION GOING ON HERE.